Multiple snakes in one enclosure?

[bebo]

Which do you agree with?

It's sensable and responsible to house multiple snakes together.

It's not sensable and responsible to house multiple snakes together.

[RyanK]

really depends on the animal. Don't want the first reply to start a flame, but some animals can be housed together with no problems. Some are community animals such as beardies and tegus, and some are territorial(sp) and will kill each other such as pacman frogs. As far as large constrictors go......not unless they're breeding(that is just an opinion though)


* the above statement was made when the poll said animals, not snakes. No snakes shouldn't be housed together(imo)

[bebo]

Ryan,
The title is about multiple snakes. But just noticed after you posted I put animals in the poll question. So I don't think you'll start any arguments about multiple animals in certain species. I edited it, so the questions match the title now. My bad.

[RyanK]

just saw you changed it , and was reading a few other threads so I fixed my comments as well

[STHA4]

This is a good poll Bebo. Id deffiantly say its irresponsible and stupid...if you think different your just putting your snakes in danger of getting in a fight.

[arbs&giants]

i have seen the results of 2 sub-adult male Veiled chams in same viv together by mistake
i wouldn't like to be in the middle of 2 large male Sulas :( :kll: :kll: :kll:

[MPenn]

I would never put more than one snake to an enclosure! Well, unless you are trying to get some hanky panky going on!! ;) ;)

It just seems irresponsible to house more than one to an enclosure.

[EmilyStrange]

It’s funny, but I just had this problem last week. I KNOW better than to house snakes together, and I bought a very nice divided tank for two juvenile corn snakes (male and female). As they have grown, I’ve moved them through smaller separate enclosures. Last week I moved them into their large divided enclosure, the male went NUTS trying to get to the other side of the tank! (The female was pre-shed) These animals are NO WHERE NEAR LARGE ENOUGH TO BREED. About 18 inches. The male finally found some way to get over there without injuring himself, and they have been inseparable ever since! I literally have to use two pencils (eraser end) to separate them to feed them (separate feed tanks)! They’re docile once they are separated, but a mess to get apart. I gave up. They have two hides, two water bowls, two scratch rocks. But they stay together in which ever hide they choose. Thinking of naming them Romeo and Juliet. This is my one and only exception. (And at first, I thought I had an escapee OR an eatee! I’m still keeping a close eye on them.)

[melikereptiles]

i have observed multipule corns and rats to a single space liveing to gether in the wild, in a tree in my back yard there are 4 yellow rat snakes that live in one holow branch of a tree we have in the back yard but im shere its one male and three females there a ecception to the rule

[EmilyStrange]

Yea, BUT….
At one point in my life I had to move, and I had to find homes for several corn snakes. (No one wants to rent to a reptile park.) One I was having a terrible time placing was named Geronimo. You can guess why. Should have named him Hannibal the Cannibal! A friend of a friend took him, but made a stink like I expected him to pay for Geronimo. (Honestly, I was just grateful to find an experienced snake keeper!) Well, he put Geronimo in with another corn snake that he bragged and bragged about how much he has spent on it……
Accidents happen…..

[melikereptiles]

Yea, BUT….
At one point in my life I had to move, and I had to find homes for several corn snakes. (No one wants to rent to a reptile park.) One I was having a terrible time placing was named Geronimo. You can guess why. Should have named him Hannibal the Cannibal! A friend of a friend took him, but made a stink like I expected him to pay for Geronimo. (Honestly, I was just grateful to find an experienced snake keeper!) Well, he put Geronimo in with another corn snake that he bragged and bragged about how much he has spent on it……
Accidents happen…..
never heard of a pure corn eating others i have heard of cornXking snake crosses eating each other

[EmilyStrange]

Pure Corn. No Joke. He was just WEIRD. Thought he was a flying snake.

I did get a “jungle corn” once. How in the world one snake could bite and sling poop all over you simultaneously is beyond me. Nice display animal.

[DAVID BRIGHT]

I once seperated two large pythons for feeding when I put the male back in he still smelled like a rat even after being wiped down with a rag, so the female tried to eat him so of course I had to jump in the middle. Those snakes were only together to breed. I would never house two together to be cheap.

[Burmcon52]

Ya....I think is it 100% IRRESPONSIBE and 100% dumb to house two pythons or even boas in the same cage especually 2 males. Some people say it is okay but my personal opinion is it is not at all :122[1]:

I cud tel u some storys

GOOD poll Bebo (Jim) :049[1]:

[smith710]

I have plenty of snakes housed together of the same species and I have never had a problem with any of them... I would never put a snake eater in with another snake eater but I have red tails together and sand boas together as well as a few other snakes together and I have yet to have a problem... and I don't do it to be cheap.. I think it looks nicer when the two are in there together... I don't think it's a problem at all as long as the snakes aren't very aggressive and are not snake eaters..

[Todd Peddle]

Never house snakes together is what i voted.

[Diceman]

Wow this is old lol

Snake eater or not it can be stressfull....I would never condone something like this

If you cant afford or dont have the room to house snakes seperatly then dont get to many snakes simple as that

[smith710]

Well like I said I've never had a problem ever... with stress or anything... all my snakes are doing perfectly fine... I've never had a snake die on me yet... I've never had any of my snakes get into fights.. They are all eating perfectly fine... All acting perfectly normal... The only problem I have ever had was a resperatory infection which has been taken care of... other than that I have never had a problem with any of my snakes and I've been keeping snakes together for years..

[mr snakish]

Expect the unexpected. No breeders keep they're snakes together unless they're breeding . It's just not worth it.

[smith710]

well people have different oppinions than others... :trink39[1

[bebo]

That is very true. But you will find one opinion greatly outweighs the other.

It's been said on here many times. They are solitary animals. What we think we see as them enjoying or tolerating company is misleading. Housing multiple animals is just not worth the risk or hassle. You have to think...the animals have no choice in a person housing them with others. They are at the mercy of the keeper to do what is ultimatelybet for their well being.

[smith710]

Ok well I'm done trying to argue my point... I see no problem with putting multiple snakes in the same enclosure as long as none of the snakes are aggressive, they are the same species, and they are not snake eaters... Many people I know have their snakes in the same enclosure and they also never had a problem... So that's the last thing I will say on this post... I dissagree with what you people think, I'm fine that you think differently.. but I see no problem with it unless one of the reasons I just said

[lizliz710]

i've been housing same spiecies of snakes together for a long time.. even breeders who have done it longer than me even say they never had a problem with it... My 3 red tails are all together my 2 sand boas are together and my western is lonely because he doesnt belong with eithe rof those 2. and well so far none of the ones who are together have had any kind of problem. im not tryign to breed any of them either... the sands are too small and the boas are all girls [ROFLMAO]

[Todd Peddle]

For those of you that keep snakes together can we see pics of your cage setups?What size are your cages?
How does one keep proper records while housing more than 1 snake in the same cage?
What size cage well you have for your 3 female Boas that you have together?Thats gonna be one hell of a big cage id bet.
In the wild do you see multiple boas,pythons,etc huddled into one small area?

[smith710]

Well how difficult is it to keep proper records? The boas aren't identical twins or maybe it would be... They are different sizes and look very different... it is actually very easy to keep records of everything... They are in a 90 gallon tank and the biggest snake is only 4 feet long right now... and yeah when they get huge they will probably have to go in seperate cages... I wouldn't make them have to be cramped over in a corner... But knowing me I will probably have a really big cage when they get that big because that's how I am... I will most likely build something huge and have it take up a whole corner of my house... They have plenty of room to move and be alone if they wish to and I will always make sure they have room... I have 4 hides in there... there are 2 big rock things and 2 log thigns in there in which give plenty of space to hide... The rocks themselves give enough room for them to all fit in just one of them.. I also have a couple of big branches in there... They have plenty of space to move... and I don't see how it would be difficult at all to keep records of the snakes for any reason... and if we are getting technical about the wild and everything... I don't think you will find any snakes stuck in a cage in the wild or get handled by humans almost every day... Like I said before and I'll say it 500 more times... All the years I've had my snakes.... and my father has had his and friends have had theirs and anybody else I know that had theres never had a problem with housing the same species of snakes together that weren't snake eaters or aggressive... If the snakes were stressed I would amagine there would be something showing that they were... but yet I never have a problem, I almost never get struck at by any of my snakes nor the snakes that I have had, They almost always shed perfect, they ALWAYS eat just fine... If they were stressed in any way I think something would show it and I have never ever had a problem....

[Todd Peddle]

So if one takes a dump which one is it?If one regurges which one is it?Im not asking how you tell them apart.Im talking about keeping records.
All my snakes when in a shed cycle like to hide in their hides or go under the substrate and never move from that hiding spot until shed is complete.They hate it when i go in and move them/check on them.They just want to be left alone.Must be pretty stressful on that snake when their is another snake in the cage moving around etc.
These rock thinges what are you using them for.Are they heat rocks?

[snakebitten69]

i love all my snakes just like they are my kids! so i would never ever ever ever house them together! yeah they might be ok, but they might not! im not willing to take that risk.

[smith710]

No I don't use heat rocks.. I've heard too many bad things about them... they are hides... just a big rock looking thing that's basically hollow... ok well I always know who is in shed and always know which shed is whos... The crap yeah... I don't always know whos crap is whos... but I don't really keep track of that... I know I should but I check regularly to make sure that one is not constapated...

[Todd Peddle]

:D
No I don't use heat rocks.. I've heard too many bad things about them... they are hides... just a big rock looking thing that's basically hollow... ok well I always know who is in shed and always know which shed is whos... The crap yeah... I don't always know whos crap is whos... but I don't really keep track of that... I know I should but I check regularly to make sure that one is not constapated...
Thats cool man.This has turned into a good debate. :trink39[1 .Glad we both can have a friendly debate.
Now you say that you use no heat rocks because you have heard(not experienced) bad things about them.Why is it then that you still keep snakes housed together and you have heard tons of bad things about this?
Makes you think doesnt it [nvy]

[Travis Kubes]

Thank god you guys dont keep retics.

[smith710]

Why is it then that you still keep snakes housed together and you have heard tons of bad things about this?
Makes you think doesnt it [nvy]

No no no... I haven't heard a ton of bad things about keeping snakes together... I've been saying that over and over... everybody that I know that has more than 1 snake has kept snakes together unless they used the snakes to breed then they keep them seperate until he wants to breed them... Nobody that I know has ever had a problem... and people I know have used heat rocks and I heard from them plus many other people that they are bad... I've only heard bad things about heat rocks... I haven't heard any bad things from people I know about keeping them together only on this website have I heard of any bad experiences...

[bebo]

Your group that you know is just a very,very small number compared to everyone else in this hobby. And apparently have not been to many sites associated with the hobby. You would find everyone would be similar. Either way it's your choice. I compare the snakes being kept together to be like a person choosing not to wear a seat belt. One can go years without a serious injury from not wearing it. Maybe they got lucky. But then there's the time(s) it could be the cause of something serious eventually.

[SteveW]

I can't think of any reason to house multiple snakes together. There are too many negative things that can happen. Feeding accidents and disease transmission are two that come to mind.

[lizliz710]

well if you dotn feed them in the same place then theres no problem... theres no problem with it at all..

[dirty_harry]

what about disease transmission? even if they outwardly appear healthy, a myriad of ailments may not become symptomatic until it has been spread. If you notice a problem like bloody stool, how do you know for sure what animal it came from? what if one accidently knocks something over in the enclosure or whatever (like a water bowl), and injures one of the others? what if one is laying on top of one another in such a fashion that it smothers the other? snakes are NOT social animals- this is a fact... if you have evidence that shows otherwise, please direct us towrads it.. BTW, when i say "evidence" i don't mean some sort of anecdotal evidence such as "oh they seem to like each other," what i would consider evidence would be a scientific article in a peer reviewed journal. Shall I go on with more reasons? I'm not trying to be an antagonist here or anything but i just cannot see the list of positives outweighing the negatives... which brings up another excellent question. For those of you that *DO* house multiple snakes together, what are the POSITIVES?

[kwickfix2001]

I say that it is too risky, especially if you have invested the money and time on some of the high dollar snakes like i have and others have. I know I would hate to have gone to check on my snakes and see a 2g snake dead or severly injured, because they seemed happy together.

I would also like to ad that the money one spends on a snake really has nothing to do with it. I was just wanting to make the point in my case that it would not be worth the risk. I have had snakes in the past that I had spent very little for and I would still not take the risk.

I'm not trying to start anything, but how would one tell if their snake wasnt stressed, or pissed because of having one or more snakes housed with them. I know mine do not speak to me. there was this one time, but I had been drinking that night. I really do like some "stank" on my drink....

Seriously, a snake could eat, shed, and everything else and still be stressed. So, how would you know before something wrong happened?

[hotz]

In the long term it's just easier to keep them in their own enclosure. I have kept snakes together but after a couple of incidents moved to a one cage one snake policy. I believe everyone I know with a large collection does the same.
Others have mentioned a couple of problems so I'll just add a story that happened to a friend of mine. He had a couple of male carpets that had been housed together for awhile. Maybe even their whole life since hatchlings, I can't really remember. One fall/winter the larger male started getting into breeding mode and wanted the other male out of his territory. When my friend noticed this his smaller male had been seriously cut numerous times by the spurs of the larger male.
I've had juveniles of non snake eating species attempt to eat each other.
Also if one pukes or puts out a suspicious dump you now have 2 snakes to keep an eye on and treat.

[Cady]

I voted no, but there are always exceptions. With snakes, I wouldnt reccomend housing any together, unless they are breeding. However I know ferrets are actually happier to be housed with other ferrets, some lizards do better in groups. However from my experience its not really smart to house snakes together.
Cady~

[cheekymunkey]

i have observed multipule corns and rats to a single space liveing to gether in the wild, in a tree in my back yard there are 4 yellow rat snakes that live in one holow branch of a tree we have in the back yard but im shere its one male and three females there a ecception to the rule

Where do you livewhere their are corns and rats in your back yard?

[questionmaker]

never mind read most of them and does sound different now

[JSinUr6]

All in all, it boils down to situation and species. As long as they are not fed together and they are not cannibols there is no problem keeping snakes together. If you go to any major park, zoo, or display like the one in illinios that use to house baby the giant burmese python, they all keep more then one snake some displays up to 20 snakes of all different sizes and species together in one enclosure. As long as they are fed seperately and are not cannibols there is no reason you can't keep them together. and regardless of what some of you may think some snakes are communal. Garter snakes for example. Granted they won't be upset if they are kept seperate, but anyone who has ever kept them in a communal tank will tell you they stay together. even with 10 different hides in the tank, 90% of the time you will find all 10-20 of them under the same one. My point is this, where as seperate may well be safer, doesn't make communal unsafe.

[Scott Leonard]

All in all, it boils down to situation and species. As long as they are not fed together and they are not cannibols there is no problem keeping snakes together. If you go to any major park, zoo, or display like the one in illinios that use to house baby the giant burmese python, they all keep more then one snake some displays up to 20 snakes of all different sizes and species together in one enclosure. As long as they are fed seperately and are not cannibols there is no reason you can't keep them together. and regardless of what some of you may think some snakes are communal. Garter snakes for example. Granted they won't be upset if they are kept seperate, but anyone who has ever kept them in a communal tank will tell you they stay together. even with 10 different hides in the tank, 90% of the time you will find all 10-20 of them under the same one. My point is this, where as seperate may well be safer, doesn't make communal unsafe.Some colubrids and rattlesnakes have been found together in the wild. Boids are not, never were and should not be forced to be together in captivity. Regardless of the rationalization, it is unsafe and unwise to have a communal situation. Go back and read Dirty Harry's last post; even if you never have one attack or harm the other, illness is a major consideration and justifies calling it "unsafe practice".

S.

[JSinUr6]

Some colubrids and rattlesnakes have been found together in the wild. Boids are not, never were and should not be forced to be together in captivity. Regardless of the rationalization, it is unsafe and unwise to have a communal situation. Go back and read Dirty Harry's last post; even if you never have one attack or harm the other, illness is a major consideration and justifies calling it "unsafe practice".

S.


I'm just gonna point you back to zoo's and other institutions that put animals on display. Go look. more times then not they have multiple snakes in every display and not only multiple snakes, but quite oftem multiple species as well. I don't find it as an unsafe practice for the reason of illness. I find not quarantining an animal before introduction to the group the unsafe practice. I repeat, without doubt it is best to keep snakes seperate, but that still doesn't make keeping them together as unsafe. I have no choice but to follow the thoughts of zoos over fellow hobbyists. If it was that big a deal, zoos and other learning institutions wouldn't do it. Like I said, I think it best to keep them seperate, but I can't call keeping them together unsafe for anyone who wishes to do so.

[Tammy]

I have no choice but to follow the thoughts of zoos over fellow hobbyists
Well, at NERD we deal with a few of the zoos in the area. On several occasions we have had to help and advise them on problems that they were having with their reptiles, usually it's a husbandry related problem that we told them to fix, which solves the problem.
I'm sure some are better than others but just keep in mind that zoos are FAR from all knowing. ;)

[JSinUr6]

Well, at NERD we deal with a few of the zoos in the area. On several occasions we have had to help and advise them on problems that they were having with their reptiles, usually it's a husbandry related problem that we told them to fix, which solves the problem.
I'm sure some are better than others but just keep in mind that zoos are FAR from all knowing. ;)


Point taking. :trink39[1

[bebo]

Zoo's also are in the money making business, as well as educating people and displaying animals. So therefore most can't afford/do not have space for every species to have a seperate habitat. So maybe its not always about whats right and wrong, the almighty dollar and politics come into play. Which adds to the fact maybe the hobbyists you chose not to listen to have more admirable things in mind fr their animals than the zoo's you've put above them. Many hobbyists have worked with equal or larger numbers of reptiles than some of the zoo personel. And have more experiece/knowledge as well, especialy on certain species.

[JSinUr6]

Once again I'm gonna say the same thing...I agree 100% that any reptile is always best in it's own cage, but, as long as you keep mature males apart, cannibols alone, feed them individually, and you quarantine any new individual to be sure he's well, there is nothing wrong with keeping them together. Besides the common sense conclusion that it will always be safer in it's own cage, there is no rock hard evidence that keeping them together is unsafe. There's not. the only thing that can be said is there is no doubt alone is safer, but I repeat, that doesn't make together unsafe.

[antsterr]

I agree that keeping more then one snake in a cage does require some responsibility. I keep my 3 corns in a tank together and they quite seem to enjoy it. I'll have to separate the male soon as they are getting bigger and with corns pre-mature breeding is a real health risk for the girls. I wouldn't keep different species together though, that could be like locking up a cat and a dog, it might be fine, it might end up badly. I understand boas and colubrids are different kinds of snakes but observing these corns I'm convinced that the two girls take comfort in being together. They're always in the same hide and usually sit in a pile with each other. The male has his favourite hide and it doesn't matter who comes to visit. When I first got put them together one of the girls actually followed the others around and did all it could to not be alone.
Of course, I don't know what they are really thinking, but they look happy with their situation.

Feed them seperate. If there is evidence of sickness seperate them. make sure there is space for them to be alone if they want to be.

[Morbid Serpent]

I say no. I used to think it might be ok, but learned from reading around that it is NOT a good idea.

Remember, just because a pet shop or zoo houses multiples snakes together, doesn't mean it's right. ;)

[Scott Leonard]

The negative aspects of keeping snakes together, as I see them are as follows:
1. Fighting.
2. Transferring illness or not knowing which one had the unhealthy defication or other symptom.
3. Accidental attack due to smelling prey on the other.
4. Stress from forcing a solitary animal to share a small space with another. They are often found together mostly because they compete for the same hot or cool spot in the cage. It's not surprising that they have the same needs at the same time. Stress kills snakes.

To me, these are all validated and proven reasons. You can do it and never have a problem or you can come home to a dead snake and wonder what happened. There was a guy in another post who used an electric blanket to heat his burm's cage for 16 years without a problem. He just had the blanket surgically removed because of the one time it stuck to the prey as it ate. Another post in this thread used the analogy of driving without a seatbelt. You could get lucky and never have a problem, or someday need the seatbelt and wonder why you didn't listen to others.
The list above "makes together unsafe".

The possitive aspects of multiple snakes together are as follows:
1. It is cheaper to have one setup.
If you can't afford a setup for each snake, you shouldn't have so many.

S.

[JSinUr6]

The negative aspects of keeping snakes together, as I see them are as follows:
1. Fighting.
2. Transferring illness or not knowing which one had the unhealthy defication or other symptom.
3. Accidental attack due to smelling prey on the other.
4. Stress from forcing a solitary animal to share a small space with another. They are often found together mostly because they compete for the same hot or cool spot in the cage. It's not surprising that they have the same needs at the same time. Stress kills snakes.

To me, these are all validated and proven reasons. You can do it and never have a problem or you can come home to a dead snake and wonder what happened. There was a guy in another post who used an electric blanket to heat his burm's cage for 16 years without a problem. He just had the blanket surgically removed because of the one time it stuck to the prey as it ate. Another post in this thread used the analogy of driving without a seatbelt. You could get lucky and never have a problem, or someday need the seatbelt and wonder why you didn't listen to others.
The list above "makes together unsafe".

The possitive aspects of multiple snakes together are as follows:
1. It is cheaper to have one setup.
If you can't afford a setup for each snake, you shouldn't have so many.

S.




All I see here is a bunch of people quoting what they see in books or in forums or wherever they want to quote it from just cause they like going with the masses. How many of you have actually kept animals together? Now for those of you that have, and i mean really have, not just saying so, how many of you have had a problem? Just like I thought. If you've never kept snakes together don't go quoting how it's unsafe and harmful when you only know this cause you read it somewhere. There's 10 million kids that think the toothfairies real too, that doesn't make it so. I have kept huge collections of some species in giant communial situations and I will stand by the fact that they had no reason to fight for or they were forced to use the same hides becuase there were more hides then snakes, and still 90% of the time they were all found in the same one when there were dozens with the same temp and setup all around. Like I said, I will not argue that keeping snakes seperate is definately better, but I can't stand hearing all of you out there telling everyone keeping them together is dangerous and what not when not one of you have any experience in the subject to back up what you say other then you read it somewhere. If it's that unsafe and that dangerous and that stressful, lets hear some true stories. lets hear some specifics from your own personal experience that you didn't read in a book. the problem is 99% of you have no experience in the subject cause you've never done it, presuming that what you read is the truth and you've never done it yourself. well i'll tell you what, every dam book out there now says retics are mean horrible animals that don't readily breed in captivity and should be avoided. HOW MANY OF YOU FOLLOW THAT NOW? That's what I thought. For you out there that like to say its unsafe let me tell you this, keeping snakes seperate is only easier for you. It only saves you stress from worrying about what you read in a book and keeps you from having to seperate them at feeding time. Snakes are not stressed out by other snakes. The only time a snake is bothered by the presence of another snake is if it's feeding time, or if it mating time and one isn't interested. Other then that they pay eachother no mind. They don't fight over space, or territory. And quite a large number of species do find comfort in numbers. those that don't, doesn't mean they find discomfort in numbers. If they are fed properly and happy, they do not care about another snake being there. PLEASE!!! WHENS THE LAST TIME ANY OF YOU SEEN TWO SNAKES FIGHT FOR ANY REASON OTHER THEN THE SAME FOOD? You don't. Unless you have experience in doing something you shouldn't comment on something just cause it's what you heard. Alligators are better off alone too. and they can cause each other a hell of alot more damage than a snake can on another snake. Plus they are far more aggressive and territorial, but you never see anyone arguing you shouldn't have those 5 alligators together. Ya know why, cause the gators regulate themselves and know what's ok and what's not ok. Snakes know there place too and they do not antagonize each other. IF IT'S NOT FEEDING TIME OR BREEDING TIME ONE SNAKE DOES NOT STRESS OUT ANOTHER SNAKE!!!!!!!! :kll:

[Morbid Serpent]

The negative aspects of keeping snakes together, as I see them are as follows:
1. Fighting.
2. Transferring illness or not knowing which one had the unhealthy defication or other symptom.
3. Accidental attack due to smelling prey on the other.
4. Stress from forcing a solitary animal to share a small space with another. They are often found together mostly because they compete for the same hot or cool spot in the cage. It's not surprising that they have the same needs at the same time. Stress kills snakes.

To me, these are all validated and proven reasons. You can do it and never have a problem or you can come home to a dead snake and wonder what happened. There was a guy in another post who used an electric blanket to heat his burm's cage for 16 years without a problem. He just had the blanket surgically removed because of the one time it stuck to the prey as it ate. Another post in this thread used the analogy of driving without a seatbelt. You could get lucky and never have a problem, or someday need the seatbelt and wonder why you didn't listen to others.
The list above "makes together unsafe".

The possitive aspects of multiple snakes together are as follows:
1. It is cheaper to have one setup.
If you can't afford a setup for each snake, you shouldn't have so many.

S.
Seriously, though. The "positive" is a lame excuse to begin with. Set-ups aren't that expensive, when you think about it. Especially if you use a Sterlite tub. Just need the extra heat sources and t-stat, and the furniture can be made cheap.

And, JSinUr6, wait till the day you come home to a dead snake and come her to whine about it while we say we told you so. Of course, I'd raher you just lose that big head of yours and do what's right. And what do you mean about people not having experience? It's kind of a no brainer, no? Disease spread and such. Mistrack of who did what (regurgitate, poop [fecals need to be done when something is wrong]). But, whatever. Believe what you want. Keep us updated on your herps. Just don't ask us how to match regurgitated food or anything. Best of luck to you and your crowded tank.

[dan.]

I am going to regret replying to this one, i can see it coming.

The reason i didnt reply when it was first posted or since in the occasional thread resurection is that i don't feel the two options are a fair respresentation of the possibilities.

The following is based on my own studies of retics based on a group of 12 females and 3 males.
These animals are of mixed origins (ie WC, CH and CB), mixed locality/morph and mixed sizes (8-14 feet). No dwarves were used. Viv sizes were variable from 60x36x18 to 72x36x36 with 3 variants in between. Multiple heat sources, water bowls and hides were provided. Each viv had a single 12inch strip light for lighting that was on a 12hr split timer.
This study was completed in may this year after 3 years of "research"

I presume this qualifies me to post on the subject ;)

I had 3 major cases of combat of varying degrees. 1 in a mid september between 2 males (this was actually an accident) - 1 x9 footer and 1 x12 footer, 1 was in a January between a male and a female with NO food present but the female had been inroduced after being in a viv directly above a breeding male - 1x8footer (male) and 1 x 14 footer (female). The last was in an august between 2 females of roughly the same size (approx 12 feet).

In addition to the above i had countless "scraps" that consisted of single bites that inflicted little to no damage at all. These were ALLWAYS started by the smaller animal with the larger either ignoring completely or coiling the smaller until it let go.

There were also a large number of "bullying" incidents, usually carried out by females to males (throughout the year) but did occur between females. I call muscle flexing to push another animal away, the pinning of cage mates to walls and back arching to hamper movements of cage mates "bullying".

Feeding induced fighting was quite high in the early stages however after carefull manipulation of cage mates depending on feeding habits i was able to reduce it so much that in the last year i had no combat for food. These animals either instantly reacted to food and snapped as soon as they saw food, slowly reacted and gently ate the prey or slowly reacted but built up rapidly with high agression levels by the time they found the food. Finding a good mix of the these habits in the animals is the key to keeping them together.

Despite having the opportunity to use different heat sources and hide systems enabling thermo regulation i was the case that 86% of the time multiple snakes used the same hides, chosing to lie together. At first it appeared that the larger animal was on the outside, however it appears that it is actually the one with the strongest feeding response. I could assume this is for a million different reasons and you can make your own assumptions from that.

Along with a reasonable amount of "proof" that these so called solitary animals will cohabit i also observed a level of "frustration"/"loneliness" from certain animals. I could atribute this to territorial behaviour aswell although i begrudge doing this. In short, certain animals displayed highly agressive tendencies, inc a vastly increased feeding response, when placed in a larger enclosure - alone. Once a second animal was introduced this increased alertness subsided within 6 hours, reverting the animal back to more "normal viv behaviour".
My gut feeling says that these animals actually co-exist in the wild to a higher degree than we usually expect. They all congregate around stable food sources and as such those in areas without stable food must need to be on a higher alertness in order to find food. I think this is represented when the animal can no longer sense another animal of simlar size in the imeadiate area. Nothing to back that up, just a thought.

Forgot to mention, all WC and CH had panacur and flagyl before introduction and the whole lot (inc the CB) were redone after a year.

Ok, so after all that waffling i finally get to my point........

If you wish to keep animals from the same species together you MUST be fully aware of every aspect of the animals behaviour and health. ANY gaps in specific animal knowledge will lead to combat, it is just a case of waiting until one becomes annoyed by a certain action.

Retics especially are "designed" not only for feeding but for combat aswell, denoted by shape of front teeth. A major combat situation between 2 medium or large animals will result in severe mutilation of either one or both animals. Depending on location of bite wounds this could be fatal.

I have my own reasons for doing this research, some good and some not ideal. Either way i have done it now and have benefitted no end from being able to watch and learn.
My research is not yet finished, i aim to move up in vivarium size to sizes that better denote wild situations. This is a long term goal that may never happen as ideally i would be looking at 15 and 20 foot "vivariums".

That said i would NOT advise anyone else to do so, i had support from every area i could possibly need it at the end of a phone, or within a 4 minute car journey (yes, we actually timed it).

It is worth noting that the above reply is a representation on MY own research, i am NOT relaying it as fact. Any ideas/suggestions i have made are based on MY opinion and not dictated by anyone else.

Right, after that i need a coffee [ROFLMAO]

[JSinUr6]

Dan....Thanks for relaying your experience. I gotta say you addressed it quite specifically in a way I couldn't get across. Well put. :049[1]: And to morbid, If you recheck all my posts you will note that all my animals are individually housed each with it's own helix heating and lighting control systems in perfectly secure enclosures. At no point did I ever say that it wasn't safer keeping animals seperate. That's just basic common sense any moron can figure out.

By simple deduction, you too would be safer if you never had contact with another human being........that doesn't make it unsafe when you are in contact with another.

If you do it responsibly there is nothing wrong with keeping animals together. It's called using common sense when you figure if an animal will be ok in such a situation. It's not the animals that make it unsafe. It's the keeper for not providing a safe enviorment for the animals to communially use. 2 retics in a pillow case sure are gonna get pissed off at each other a hell of a lot quicker then 2 retics in a room size enclosure.

Use common sense and good practices and you will be fine housing animals together if you so choose.

And just my opinion, the poll shoulda had a third choice of "depends on the situation" cause these 2 options make it seem like there is only 2 options. In this situation, there is plenty of gray area........ :122[1]:

[JSinUr6]

Oh, and Dan, I have to agree 100% with your observation of aggressive behaviors subsiding when a secon animal was introduced. If anyone cares to look in the retic forum you will notice I made this same observation only about 2 weeks ago when I got my amel retic. I had a much larger tiger het female that was extremely cage aggressive and did not like being bothered PERIOD!!! I had to place the amel male in her cage for approx...36 hours while I finished his enclosure. Within those 36 hours of them being together wich you can see pics of in the post as well, my tiger het female did a complete 180....... not only is she no longer cage aggressive, she is probably my sweetest retic to date. I also noticed after removing the amel male after a few days she seemed to be going back to that attitude. By simply placing my larger albino males cage directly next to hers, (they are glass and they can see eachother 100%) she regressed right back to a kitty cat and they spend by my observation 95% of their time coiled up next to the glass side by side with each other. and it's not for the reason of needing the same climate as their heating and hides are on the same side in each cage, 1 is in the warm zone and the other in the cool zone of their respective cage.


Plus, if you look closely in the photo of the amel and tiger together, you will note in the cage next store is my het for amel female coiled right up against the glass next to the other 2. anyone that wishes to call these situations coincidence or unsafe has obviously never bothered to observe such situations for any period of time.

[dan.]

Just for the record, my post wasn't aimed to back up or go against anyone's post - it was purely a record of my own observations

[JSinUr6]

Just for the record, my post wasn't aimed to back up or go against anyone's post - it was purely a record of my own observations


And it was taking as such....thanks for sharing. :trink39[1

[Scott Leonard]

"Seriously, though. The "positive" is a lame excuse to begin with."

Sorry, I should have warned you that I speek fluent sarcasm and occasionally break out in uncontrollable fits. I don't think that housing animals together because it is cheap, is a possitive.

JS, you do.....what you gotta do. Good luck with your communal snake collection. I'm done here.

S.

[Morbid Serpent]

"Seriously, though. The "positive" is a lame excuse to begin with."

Sorry, I should have warned you that I speek fluent sarcasm and occasionally break out in uncontrollable fits. I don't think that housing animals together because it is cheap, is a possitive.

JS, you do.....what you gotta do. Good luck with your communal snake collection. I'm done here.

S.
I was hoping you were being sarcastic. :p

And whatever works for everyone, I guess works. I'd rather not find out the hard way.

[JSinUr6]

I was hoping you were being sarcastic. :p

And whatever works for everyone, I guess works. I'd rather not find out the hard way.


I've said it before, in a few long winded posts here, so I wanted to just post with this said alone......

I agree with all of you 100% that seperate cages are the way to go and is definately a practice that stands second to none in respects to animal safety.....at no time will you ever here me actually recommend to anyone keeping animals in a cage together if you can possibly house them seperate.....although it can be quite intersting to watch in certain species like garters, It is definately not the best situation,....

I only wanted to make the point to those out there that come to a situation where it might be necessary to do for whatever the situation, like me finishing my amels enclosure, that there is no reason to be afraid and paranoid that you will wake up to a dead snake becuse of it, although the odds of such an incedent do increase due to the situation. I find it true, that 99% of the time if done responsibly all will be fine, but never do I recommend tempting that 1% if you don't NEED TOO. It certainly wouldn't be a happy occassion to find the tail of one snake sticking out the mouth of another or one snake with a gashed open wound because another found him impolite......not likely sinerios, but still, not a risk anyone should take lightly.

[erobinson]

Only put animals together for breeding purposes, and still you have to be careful with that. When putting males together,feedings, cleaning bacteria and other protozoa and animals that are terrritoral and just have nasty temperments.

[piethawn]

Ive housed boa constrictors together, and when I had a chutch of blood pythons, I kept them together. Baby snakes have never been a problem